PDA

View Full Version : 4.0 wont start. Need help!!!



GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 09:20 AM
Well i finally got everything back together after changing my exhaust manifold. went to start it and it would only crank but not turn over. Similar as if it wasn't getting fuel or spark. Checked pressure on the fuel rail (via the schrader valve) and sprayed fuel so seems ok. Haven't checked spark but it has a new coil less then 6 months old. It has all the symptoms of a bad crank position sensor but that was also replaced within the past 6 months.

Any ideas? Thought about trying another cps but they are a little pricey considering im not positive thats the problem.

meaders
02-23-2012, 09:24 AM
have you checked your hydrausalator valve??:2c:

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 10:15 AM
maybe its worried you might go wheeling on stock shafts again... put the chromos in the front and see if it starts:la:

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 10:16 AM
but on a serious note, theres only 3 things it needs right? spark, fuel, and compression. I'm assuming you have compression and you said you have fuel, so check for spark

GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 10:45 AM
hahaha dont worry, chromos are currently in the mail as we speak. no more 30 yr old stockers for me.

but yes it has compression, checked that a few months ago when it was running funny. Fuel it seems to be getting cause the rail has pressure. Didn't have time to check spark before the rain came in last night. So hopefully ill check that today when i get off. but it has new cap, new rotor button, and new coil. and i doubt all my spark plugs are bad at once if it was running fine before.

What would tell the computer to not send spark? Bad CPS should but its new. What else?

And yes meaders, hydrausalator valve is in good working shape. that was the first thing i checked. Wondering if it could be the rotary girter?

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 10:47 AM
hahaha dont worry, chromos are currently in the mail as we speak. no more 30 yr old stockers for me.

but yes it has compression, checked that a few months ago when it was running funny. Fuel it seems to be getting cause the rail has pressure. Didn't have time to check spark before the rain came in last night. So hopefully ill check that today when i get off. but it has new cap, new rotor button, and new coil. and i doubt all my spark plugs are bad at once if it was running fine before.

What would tell the computer to not send spark? Bad CPS should but its new. What else?

And yes meaders, hydrausalator valve is in good working shape. that was the first thing i checked. Wondering if it could be the rotary girter?

what all did you change when you took the intake and exhaust off, i'm guessing there may be something not hooked up

meaders
02-23-2012, 10:51 AM
i just remembered, no rotary girter on your jeep. those only came in the uber rare jeep with a wankle motor...

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 10:54 AM
no rotary girter on your jeep, those only came in the uber rare jeep with a wankle motor...

I think your referring to the Wanker Motor, jeeps never came with a wankle motor

GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 11:00 AM
I pulled all the necessary pieces off to change the exhaust manifold. Labeled all vacuum lines and sensor plugs. Put it all back to where it was suppose to be. Double checked and couldn't find anything not hooked up. I'm stumped. I just want to drive my jeep again.

meaders
02-23-2012, 11:00 AM
I think your referring to the Wanker Motor, jeeps never came with a wankle motor

thats why its uber RARE.....

and i made a typo, it was a wankel motor (aka rotary engine) thats why its got a rotary girter...

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 11:02 AM
thats why its uber RARE.....

Oh, that IS RARE

954

meaders
02-23-2012, 11:04 AM
brooks that "wanker" motor is the shiznit.....

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Wanker


sorry for the derail casey... too good to pass up.

GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 11:04 AM
No Wankas here!!!!!! You stupid American bast#$ds, when will you learn from the bloody Brits!!

GREASEMONKEY
02-23-2012, 11:08 AM
Yours is new enough that you will have PCM controlled ignition and fuel. The fact that there is pressure means nothing if the PCM is not opening injectors. Spark is the same way. You need to take the time and test all components in the proper order to truly find out where the problem is. You need a FSM, Haynes manual to perform the troubleshooting.
Sensors, senders, ect..... can fail overnight. Just because it was new a month ago means nothing. I have replaced sensors, and had them fail within 24hr of the install.

GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 11:15 AM
It did throw a check engine light, but i dont have a scanner to check what it is. I may "try out" a new cps and see what it does.

WolfGT
02-23-2012, 11:17 AM
brooks that "wanker" motor is the shiznit.....

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Wanker


sorry for the derail casey... too good to pass up.

Note the first line ...."For more examples of negative thrust, see Masturbation (disambiguation)."

LOL, that's just hilarious.

Shilohsho
02-23-2012, 11:20 AM
It turns over but doesn't crank(actually begins operating on its own without a starter rotating the assembly.)

GreyZJ93
02-23-2012, 11:26 AM
It did throw a check engine light, but i dont have a scanner to check what it is. I may "try out" a new cps and see what it does.

Correct Tucker, it turns over fine with the starter so no batter issues but it just wont fire off and run on its own.

bulldogg213
02-23-2012, 11:36 AM
Check for spark first .........

WolfGT
02-23-2012, 11:53 AM
For not checking spark first, you must now check by using the tongue method (like you do with 9v batteries). Good luck.

97TJGUZZY
02-23-2012, 11:57 AM
For not checking spark first, you must now check by using the tongue method (like you do with 9v batteries). Good luck.

i hear thats the best method

06TJX
02-23-2012, 11:59 AM
Yowser!!! Make sure you video tape that....Id would be Viral in a matter of min.

Clemson5.9ZJ
02-23-2012, 01:41 PM
Casey I think we have a winner. Im taking off work tonight and going to video tape you and were getting famous.

06TJX
02-23-2012, 01:48 PM
While your at it, have a lighter lit at his ***....I'm sure as he gets jolted he'll at least let a massive fart loose...shock ans awe for the viewers at home...hahaha

1 CMF
02-23-2012, 04:32 PM
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k522/pwrstroke/demotivational-posters-seems-legit-electric-shock-guy-laying-in-road.jpg

I say try it
:flipoff2:

Steve97tj
02-23-2012, 05:51 PM
Sounds like your not getting enough air to me. Slap the turbo on and you should be good, use a hair dryer to help spool it up and it should start up.

01tj
02-23-2012, 06:24 PM
Let me get that turbo.. I need some go fast!:grin:

bulldogg213
02-23-2012, 09:50 PM
For not checking spark first, you must now check by using the tongue method (like you do with 9v batteries). Good luck.
LOL agreed

GreyZJ93
02-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Marcus, its all yours for a small fee. It'll come with everything you need.

Update: Changed cps last night as well as checked spark. Its getting spark and the sensor did nothing. Still wont start. I'm down to the injectors must not be firing. So what tells the injectors to fire? What sensors would control that?

GREASEMONKEY
02-24-2012, 09:39 AM
Changed CPS as in crank, or cam?
If I member right. Crank does fuel, cam does spark. I'll look it up and get back to ya.

WolfGT
02-24-2012, 09:42 AM
So when you pulled the plugs, they were dry?

VOLT
02-24-2012, 09:49 AM
Mine did this a while back and it ended up being the ignition switch. My radio didnt work a few months prior to this.

GreyZJ93
02-24-2012, 01:02 PM
CPS as in crank position sensor.

It was dark and i had crappy lights but the plugs looked dry.

Volt, so yours would act like it want to start but would never actually run without the starter turning it?

VOLT
02-24-2012, 01:49 PM
That's exactly what it would do. Probably is not ur culprit but could be worth looking into.

GreyZJ93
02-26-2012, 06:28 PM
I'm electrically retarded, any way to bypass the ignition switch to check and see if thats my problem? It still wont start.

I need help!! Chromos will be in here friday and i'm dying to drive it again and go wheel!

1 CMF
02-26-2012, 08:09 PM
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k522/pwrstroke/422745_10150615294394454_716144453_8730891_1649454 17_n.jpg

Quit wasting time and drop a 5.3 in :grin: i hear thats what all the cool kids do these days

GreyZJ93
02-27-2012, 01:10 PM
Any new ideas? Its starting to frustrate the hell out of me cause its getting everything its suppose to and it still wont start.

I feel like it has to be something electrical that is controlling the firing of the injectors.

Steve97tj
02-27-2012, 02:50 PM
Have you checked all your fuses? Mine has blown 1 or 2 particular fuses twice leaving it not starting but everything sounded like it was suppose to. Fuel pump might not have primed though, and I even replaced it, twice cause one was faulty.

GreyZJ93
02-27-2012, 03:57 PM
As dumb as this is, i honestly haven't checked any fuses. And if i recall correctly, theres a fuse that is an "engine control" fuse. Looks like ill be pulling fuses later this evening. Crossing fingers.

Steve97tj
02-27-2012, 07:04 PM
Smokey? http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/a-mondar-30.jpg

GREASEMONKEY
02-27-2012, 08:20 PM
Your crank position sensor is what determines your injector sequence and ignition timing. Check the sensor.

GreyZJ93
02-27-2012, 11:14 PM
Crank position sensor was changed less than 6 months ago. But just for shiz, i changed it last week with no luck.

But i checked all my fuses and swapped all relays tonight all seemed good and still no luck. BUT, just as i was about to give up for the night, i decided to try one more time. Got in, turned the key, it did the same thing as usual for a few revolutions and then it fired!!! It wouldn't stay running without giving it throttle but eventually it got to idling fine by itself. let it run for a few minutes and shut it off. Went to crank it again and it went back to doing the same thing its been doing. Progress but still not good.

Any ideas on what would cause it to not start back?

WolfGT
02-28-2012, 10:44 AM
If it was sputtering like that, it sounds like fuel supply to me. Check the fuel filter and pump. There may be pressure at the rail but maybe not enough or not consistent.

GreyZJ93
02-28-2012, 12:14 PM
Well the thing is, after i got it running and it starting idling by itself, it was fine. I could rev it up like normal and then it'd idle like it should everything was fine. Then i shut it off and it wouldn't start back. May change the filter just to be safe since its been awhile. Possibly TPS since it wouldn't idle at first?

WolfGT
02-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Kind of interesting that it fired after you were messing with the fuses.

GreyZJ93
02-29-2012, 09:11 AM
I know. and technically i didn't change anything. I put all the fuses back in the same spot as before. Still wont fire over after multiple tries. Then when i was about give up and tried one last time it cranked. Completely baffled!!

alex71
02-29-2012, 12:55 PM
My TJ was doing the same thing back before i sold it. I had spark and fuel but would not start. The code said cylinder 3 misfire. I checked the cps like you did and the I pulled the fuses and relays and it still would not start. It ended up being a wire arcing on my flat fenders causing the problems. taped up the wire and it started right up. So check your wiring running from the fuse box.

GreyZJ93
02-29-2012, 01:24 PM
I just dont get what i did between unbolting the manifold and installing the new one. Fuse block is on the complete opposite side of the engine bay. But i'm at a loss so ill try anything. Thanks.

jfhowel
02-29-2012, 06:45 PM
It sounds like you have a wire loose in one of the plugs or a grounding issue. I had a problem quite similar to yours on that old farm truck i drove to uwharrie a couple of times. It ended up being the computer had burnt up but you could clearly smell it when you put the computer up to your nose.

jimbo92
02-29-2012, 11:34 PM
check wires like crazy since it sat, those a very same symptoms to what our explorer did when a squirrel had a fuckingballs field day under the hood and chewed through the oil cap, throttle cable, and TPS. he also left a mess of the heater box and left pecans everywhere.....

GREASEMONKEY
03-01-2012, 07:58 AM
Just out of curiosity, did you check the ASD relay?

yellow rubicon
03-01-2012, 08:35 AM
did you hook up a fuel pressure gauge to the rail?.. if its not at 39lbs then its your fuel pump screwing up.
pushing the valve in and it squirting fuel means nothing. Mine had 10lbs of pressure and still squirted fuel.

also MAP sensor can cause the hard start and stall.

GreyZJ93
03-01-2012, 09:00 AM
I'll try and check all the wires tonight and see if any of them are exposed and arcing somewhere.

yeah. i actually did check the ASD relay. That was one of my thoughts but no luck.

And no i haven't hooked up a gauge to the rail. I hear it cut on like usual, prime the rail, and then shut off. I guess i should check the actually pressure just to be sure.

yellow rubicon
03-01-2012, 10:19 AM
if you werent so far i d bring mine over. $40 purchase and used once :)
jiggle the map sensor on the firewall.. you d be amazed what i've seen.
Since it ran before you put the headers on, i would retrace all the wires or check things that might have been bumped off during the manifold removal.

bulldogg213
03-01-2012, 10:27 AM
I just dont get what i did between unbolting the manifold and installing the new one. Fuse block is on the complete opposite side of the engine bay. But i'm at a loss so ill try anything. Thanks.
It makes sense that it had something to do with the manifold swap....are you sure you didn't forget or miss a ground strap on your swap ? Back to basics..it ran fine before the swap..right?

97TJGUZZY
03-01-2012, 10:33 AM
..it ran fine before the swap..right?

thats debatable since the jackstand fell when there was no tranny attached...

GreyZJ93
03-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Hey hey hey!!! It was the jack that leaked down not a jack stand. and the tranny was attached, thats why my fan was pointing skyward. But i got it running after that incident. so watch it! Im just glad that accident didn't rip everything off the firewall.

But i have looked and looked and looked and cant find a missing wire or strap or line or plug.

Steve97tj
03-01-2012, 11:11 AM
See if advance will let you borrow there's. If not Marcus has one you might could wiggle away from him.

Maybe the grocery getter is just acting out since you have been neglecting it with the 4wheeler and bro-ram. Mine shat on me by busting my windshield, and stripping my pinion after not driving it for several months. I'm still waiting on the call that it caught on fire for cutting everything off of it.

GreyZJ93
03-01-2012, 11:31 AM
But i have been driving it alot and trying to work on her. Been fixing all the little things to make it even better. Thats why i did the manifold swap. I was driving it almost everyday untill this. And I just want it back. I even got new chromos for her so i wont break front shafts every trip.

And the bro-ram has not been touched, other than wiring trailer brakes. All i do is drive it. But the 400 is understandable, I have been doing alot to it.

GreyZJ93
03-01-2012, 11:08 PM
Well, im not sure if its progress or not. It is still doing the same not firing over thing no matter what i do with the throttle but after the second or third try, it will stutter like normal and then fire off. Then i have to give it gas for a few seconds otherwise it'll cut off on me but after about 10 seconds, it will idle by itself and run like normal. I let it run for about 15 minutes, get up to operating temperature and then shut it off. Tried to crank it again and wounldn't fire as usually and about the third try, it would shutter again and then fire off.

So it is starting more frequently now but still not right. I tried to "clean" my IAC while i had the throttle body off and i wonder if i goofed something up on that?

WolfGT
03-01-2012, 11:10 PM
My guess is still low fuel pressure.

GreyZJ93
03-02-2012, 09:14 AM
Possibility, so I'm gonna throw the upper arms back in it and try to drive it and see if putting a load on the motor tries to bog it out. Then i'd be lead to believe fuel could be my issue (filter or pump)

97TJGUZZY
03-05-2012, 08:29 AM
did you get anywhere with this over the weekend?

Steve97tj
03-05-2012, 08:51 AM
He had to go to Florida for a funeral.

GreyZJ93
03-06-2012, 01:14 PM
Nothing got done this weekend but im gonna try and mess with it more tonight. I'm at wits end with this thing!! I am completely clueless to what it could be. I'm probably going to change the fuel filter tonight and keep looking for bare wires or something.

Any way timing could be involved?

97TJGUZZY
03-06-2012, 01:17 PM
Nothing got done this weekend but im gonna try and mess with it more tonight. I'm at wits end with this thing!! I am completely clueless to what it could be. I'm probably going to change the fuel filter tonight and keep looking for bare wires or something.

Any way timing could be involved?

doubt timing would be involved if it ran good when it did run

jfhowel
03-06-2012, 01:21 PM
I have a light if you need one

Steve97tj
03-06-2012, 01:24 PM
Nothing got done this weekend but im gonna try and mess with it more tonight. I'm at wits end with this thing!! I am completely clueless to what it could be. I'm probably going to change the fuel filter tonight and keep looking for bare wires or something.

Any way timing could be involved?

When you going to be messing with it? I may come by to shoot the **** and bring your table back that i stole :flipoff2:

GreyZJ93
03-06-2012, 01:27 PM
yeah thats what i was thinking, but i am so confused to why the hell its doing this, that i'm willing to try anything.

steve, ill be out there after work (5:45ish)

Clemson5.9ZJ
03-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Have you welded to the Jeep recently with the battery cable on? I can't recall you doing anything off the top of my head. Read something on Pirate about a guy with an XJ on 40s had the same problem and he swapped his ECU and fixed it.

GreyZJ93
03-06-2012, 04:15 PM
Surprisingly enough, i did all the suspension under my jeep with the battery connected. I know your not suppose to but its been kicking for the past 4 years with no problems. But no i didn't do any recently. If i could find a computer i'd swap them to check and see if it fixes it but i dont know anyone with an early zj.

bulldogg213
03-06-2012, 05:51 PM
Have you tried making up a new ground strap from engine to firewall? Maybe yours got gone when the jack leaked down...it would only take a few minutes to make sure you have proper ground...evev use jumper cables from engine to body and see if it runs then

GreyZJ93
03-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Found out how to check my codes without a scanner....throwing code 12 and 23
12-is basically saying the computer has no memory in the last 100 key strokes (expected since i did undo the battery cables to attempt to reset the computer)

23- "Air Charge or Throttle Body temperature voltage HIGH/LOW-charge air temperature sensor input is above or below the acceptable voltage limits."

I did take out the MAT sensor when i put the intake manifold into the parts washer to clean it (im pretty sure thats what the sensor is that screws into the intake manifold). Maybe something got damaged while it was sitting on the table? or some people were saying the IAC can be the culprit which i quite possible could have f"ed up when i took it out to clean it.

Could it still not start even if i "fixed" the problem because the computer hasn't been properly reset since fixing it?

97TJGUZZY
03-06-2012, 08:31 PM
Found out how to check my codes without a scanner....throwing code 12 and 23
12-is basically saying the computer has no memory in the last 100 key strokes (expected since i did undo the battery cables to attempt to reset the computer)

23- "Air Charge or Throttle Body temperature voltage HIGH/LOW-charge air temperature sensor input is above or below the acceptable voltage limits."

I did take out the MAT sensor when i put the intake manifold into the parts washer to clean it (im pretty sure thats what the sensor is that screws into the intake manifold). Maybe something got damaged while it was sitting on the table? or some people were saying the IAC can be the culprit which i quite possible could have f"ed up when i took it out to clean it.

Could it still not start even if i "fixed" the problem because the computer hasn't been properly reset since fixing it?

if you disconnect the battery for 10 minutes the computer is reset.

WolfGT
03-06-2012, 08:55 PM
After it resets, load Windows 95 on it. You'll be good to go ..... 10 miles at a time ...... before a crash.

LBarr2002
03-06-2012, 09:19 PM
After it resets, load Windows 95 on it. You'll be good to go ..... 10 miles at a time ...... before a crash.

No, 95 was much more stable. Just don't put ME on it.

GREASEMONKEY
03-06-2012, 09:39 PM
A fast relearn requires more than a 10min battery disconnect.

Remove neg. cable, remove pos. cable, zip tie cables together. Make sure they are contacting. Then press the brake pedal 45-50 times. That should discharge all the PCM capacitor. Then drive a little agressive.

GreyZJ93
03-08-2012, 09:18 AM
She lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Knock on wood.....I put the upper arms in it and went to start it and it fired right over. Drove it around the neighborhood, came back and shut it off, and then started it back up. No problems. Drove it to work today with no problems either. Keeping my fingers crossed that its finally fixed!!

Not 100% sure if the problems is gone but i wanna thank everyone for their input and advice. Glad i can finally drive it again.

97TJGUZZY
03-08-2012, 09:29 AM
She lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Knock on wood.....I put the upper arms in it and went to start it and it fired right over. Drove it around the neighborhood, came back and shut it off, and then started it back up. No problems. Drove it to work today with no problems either. Keeping my fingers crossed that its finally fixed!!

Not 100% sure if the problems is gone but i wanna thank everyone for their input and advice. Glad i can finally drive it again.

told you putting the arms in would fix it :flipoff2:

GreyZJ93
03-08-2012, 09:58 AM
hahaha touche....that must have been it!

Steve97tj
03-08-2012, 10:05 AM
Just needed to be grounded better. Glad you got it working. Got caught up in stuff other night and forgot about coming by.

GreyZJ93
03-08-2012, 01:04 PM
I guess so. haha. But no worries. I owe you a case of beer anyways for feeding the tasmanian terror while i was gone.

yellow rubicon
03-08-2012, 08:07 PM
so what was it that fixed it?

GreyZJ93
03-09-2012, 09:37 AM
haha. umm....not exactly sure. Pulled the code that said something like air intake temperature blah blah blah. code 23. So i replaced the intake manifold air temperature sensor. It got rid of the code but still wouldn't start like it should. Decided to try and drive it and see if it was a fuel pump/filter issue. Changed the joints on my upper arms, bolted them in, and then it fired right up! Dont know exactaly why or how but it did. Maybe the computer just need time to relearn the new sensors installed.

Been driving it the past two days with no issues yet. (knock on wood)

GreyZJ93
03-12-2012, 09:14 AM
I guess i didn't knock on wood hard enough....its done the weird no start thing twice this weeekend. Went and wheeled it alittle sunday and it cuts off every once in a while when you go from 1st to Reverse and the transmission was pulling like sh$%. And occassionaly it wouldn't pull at all, just rev up and then all of a sudden kick in. WTF!

WolfGT
03-12-2012, 02:02 PM
I figured it wasn't magically fixed. At least you didn't get stranded anywhere.

GreyZJ93
03-12-2012, 02:51 PM
Yeah, i was kinda baffled by that as well. but i wasnt gonna complain since it was actually running. I'll check the fluid when i get off work but it just doesn't make sense why it would pull sometimes and then other times id let off the brake and give it gas and it would just roll back down the hill with the motor at like 3 grand. Wondering if the pump is bad in it? Cause it drives fine around town. I dont know if it was replaced when i had the tranny rebuild.